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#1 14 Dec 2009 03:39

Ray7033
Member
Registered: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 6

John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

We have a side branch in our tree of a John MUTCH who lived in Tyrie/New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire.  He had a "housekeeper" [1881 Census] called Charlotte SHIRRAN.  She was registered as his wife in the 1901 Census but they never actually married.

We have some information on them although being a side-branch, we haven't spent too much time looking into their situation.  We do know that they had ten children and Charlotte was still alive in 1928.

If anyone wants more information about them, this is what we know about the children, mainly from Census but some from certificates:

Charlotte MUTCH b c. 1874/6
Robert MUTCH b. 13 12 1878
John MUTCH b. c. 1879
Jemima Milne MUTCH b. c. 1881 d. 1899
George Noble MUTCH b. 21 4 1883
Elizabeth C MUTCH b c. 1883 d. 1886
Annie MUTCH b c. 1886
Alexander Mutch SHIRRAN [sic b. 9 10 1887, d 9.10.87 [6 hours]
Isabella Emslie MUTCH b 1888
Jas McB MUTCH b. c. 1894

Regards

Ray7033

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#2 21 Aug 2013 00:19

mammasig
Member
Registered: 20 Aug 2013
Posts: 3

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

Hi

I have just started looking back at my mum's side of the family, Mutch.  I have got back as far as John Mutch with Charlotte Shirran.

Thanks for the information, I have been tearing my hair out looking for birth certificates etc, now I have the approx births and names for the children, this will be easier!

It seems that John Mutch (my gg Grandfather) was married and I have looked back and I think I may have trace to a marriage to Mary Mutch (Reid) and they had a son William Mutch 1864 born in Rathen, perhaps I have gone down a rat hole with this but the fact John Mutch was shown as Married made me think he had been/was to someone else.  Mary Reid came from the same place as Charlotte Shirran (Monquhitter).

from the census 1881 - 1911
1881
John Mutch
Charlotte Shirran
Charlotte Mutch Shirran  1877 (on birth cert she is illegitimate and the father is not named, however I don't think it takes a genius to know who her father was.  Adding to the idea he was married previously and ran off with someone else (?)
Robert Mutch 1978
John Mutch
Mary Jane Kynoch (neice)

The other children I have got through the other census were
Isabella (bella)
Jemima
George
Annie (married Alexander Lovie)
Elizabeth
George
Joseph or Jas McB

I would be very interested if you have managed to find out anything else, I realise your post was some time ago now!

Thanks

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#3 21 Aug 2013 22:18

Ray7033
Member
Registered: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 6

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

Hi

We don't know anything about John MUTCH but we do know about Charlotte SHIRRAN's ancestry to some extent - details are a bit thin but this is what we have.

Although we haven't found any evidence of a marriage, we do know that Charlotte called herself Mrs Mutch in later census records.  Of course Scotland has a number of irregular forms of marriage and they may have gone through one of those.  It should be on the record but we haven't found it yet.  Certainly they stayed together for a long time.  To be fair we haven't looked very hard as Charlotte was the step sister of my wife's ancestor, Jane SHIRRAN.

Charlotte was the daughter c.1849 of Alexander SHIRRAN and his fourth wife Elspet CLARK.  Alexander was born in 1787: father Alexander SHIRRAN, mother his "servant girl" Elizabeth LEGGATT - not married.  Alexander younger died in 1858 in New Deer; elspet CLARK pre-deceased him.  Charotte died in 1928.

Both Alexanders were lively lads.  Both were up before the Kirk Session sometime around 1805  for getting local girls pregnant so the tradition carried on for a short while!!

Jane SHIRRAN was born about 1835 to the third wife of Alexander, younger, Ann CADGER.

We know quite a bit about Alexander younger's children and grandchildren but these are all peripheral to your line.

Best wishes

Ray Hennessy
www.whatsinaname.net

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#4 21 Aug 2013 23:56

mammasig
Member
Registered: 20 Aug 2013
Posts: 3

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

Hi
thanks for getting back to me.  I have found a bit more information regarding Charlotte SHIRRAN..it seems she was a lively lass smile I found this on the CHEYNE website.  She had a daughter Jane clark cheyne 1868 (father William Cheyne) prior to john MUTCH.  There is no mention of her on any of the census I have seen...

I found information  on the same cheyne and the mutch' website to say Charlotte stayed with her sister Jane Clark Cheyne when she was 11 and a domestic servant
It would be easier if they didn't all have the same names!

thanks!
Kelly

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#5 22 Aug 2013 01:04

Ray7033
Member
Registered: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 6

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

Hi Kelly

Jane Clark CHEYNE was the illegitimate daughter [b 1868] of Charlotte SHIRRAN [aged 19] and William CHEYNE [aged 23].  Jane lived with her father at his family home.  Later [in 1892] William married the daughter of Charlotte's half sister Jane SHIRRAN, Margaret, who was of course Charlotte's step-niece!!!  William & Margaret had two children.  "Clark" was Charlotte's mother's maiden name: Elspet CLARK.

Jane Clark CHEYNE died in 1919, unmarried.  Maybe I need to look up the 1911 Census sometime to continue to trace all these folk.  Some of their direct descendants may still be alive.

You quoted the Cheyne & Mutch website saying:
     "Charlotte stayed with her sister Jane Clark Cheyne when she was 11 and a domestic servant". 

I think this is wrong as J C C is Charlotte's daughter.  Charlotte was 11 in 1860/1.  I haven't looked at the 1861 Census for these people, though I can do so sometime.  Charlotte certainly wasn't living with her half sister Jane SHIRRAN then as Jane was married to William IRONSIDE and living at Balquhindachy in Methlick by then and already had three children [of 7]. 

On the other hand there may have been a Jane CHEYNE [no "Clark"] that she lived with - I do have a vague recollection of this though it is from a visit to Aberdeen Family History Society of about ten years ago!!  It could make sense if she was living with the CHEYNE family as a domestic servant and 'met' William there.

You are quite right about the re-using of names being annoying.  We spent ages and lots of money trying to trace one of Jane SHIRRAN's grandsons but he disappears from the records after the 1891 census.  We thought we had found him dying at The Somme in 1917 but the army records proved he wasn't ours.

Which one of Charlotte & John CHEYNE's lines are you from?  I have nine of their children listed, born 1874-1894.  Two of the girls [Jemima and Elizabeth] died young but I haven't traced the rest.

Hope this is all of interest.  I have been fascinated by Alexander SHIRRAN and his huge family for about 12 years.  He had such a colourful life from inauspicious beginnings.  He had four [possibly five] wives and eight children from 1813 to 1853. 

Ann his third child, born 1821, dtr of Isabellal ROSS, was very simple [classed as "imbecile" on a census] and lived with her stepmothers and then various married stepsisters after her mother died.  Ann/Annie lived to 69 so was well looked after by them all.  It shows an incredible devotion to the family.

Let me know if you can stand any more of all this!  I don't have a lot on the MUTCH children, just some census records I got for Charlotte.  But there will be plenty more available on Certificates on line - at a fairly low price from Scotland's People.

Best wishes

Ray

PS You can always contact me through my website www.whatsinaname.net

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#6 24 Aug 2013 00:03

mammasig
Member
Registered: 20 Aug 2013
Posts: 3

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

Thanks John, I'm from the Mutch line actually, but, it's all very interesting stuff regarding the shirr an/Cheyne connection too.  Charlotte would be my great great grandmother!

I have not been to the Family History place in King St Aberdeen yet, but, I'm planning on doing so.  I think I have another lead on my John MUTCH line, I think his father was Alexander and mother Anne Anderson.  Perhaps another rat hole to go up, but, I think this one seems most likely.  I have had a couple of days off searching to try and look with fresh eyes.

I had to chuckle when I saw the categories on the census form & how that would be completely unacceptable in this day and age!

I will have a look at your website, thanks for all the information, all my mum's relations are interested in what I am digging up and they love a piece of gossip smile

I will check out your website, thanks again

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#7 25 Aug 2013 00:56

Ray7033
Member
Registered: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 6

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

Hi Kelly

Here are the facts as far as we know them about your ancestors [all in Aberdeenshire unless mentioned].  Alexander SHIRRAN was your great-great-great grandfather.  It's quite a story and shows how men had to remarry when there were young children around if the wife died - probably in childbirth!!

====================================
Your ancestor Charlotte SHIRRAN was born about 1849 [not registered] in Monquhitter parish.  She died on 9 June 1928 at 22 High St New Pitsligo, Tyrie parish.  She never married as far as we know.

She had a daughter, Jane Clark CHEYN on 22 January 1868 with William CHEYN in Pitsligo.  Jane lived with hr father and his parents in the Census and died in 1919 in Monlettie, Methlick parish.

Charlotte then moved in as housekeeper to John MUTCH with whom she had nine children [at least] at various addresses in High Street New Pitsligo.  We have details of the children's births and the early death of two of them.

Charlotte was the daughter of Alexander SHIRRAN and Elspet CLARK, married 25 Nov 1848 in Monquhitter.  Elspet CLARK was born sometime around 1807 in New Deer and died sometime before 1856 which was when her younger daughter Mary died [30 July 1856, Broomhill, New Deer].

Elspet had a son, George Clark SHIRRAN, born c.1853 in Monquhitter.  He married Jessie OGILVIE 27 June 1883 in Dunnichen, Kincardineshire and died at 2 Jasmine Terrace, Aberdeen on 6 June 1902.  They had no children of their own but adopted (?) the son of Jessie's unmarried sister, Marjorie.  This was George Shirran OGILVIE, born 31 August 1884; he married Mary Jack KEITH on 4 June 1912 in Woodside, Aberdeen by which time he was known as George Ogilvie SHIRRAN.

We haven't studied the ancestry of Elspet CLARK.

Alexander SHIRRAN, Charlotte's father, was born in New Deer, baptised 1 April 1787, to Alexander SHIRRAN and Elizabeth LEGGATT who was the family's "servant girl" according to the Kirk Session Minutes.  We know nothing about their antecedents.

Alexander SHIRRAN, b 1787 had three registered wives and possibly one or two previous partners with whom he had children.

The first partner was Ann DUNCAN.  They had Barbara SHIRRAN c 1813 in New Deer.  Barbara married Andrew NOBLE on 1 January 1835 in New Deer and they had ten known children.  Barbara died 18 May 1882 in New Pitsligo and Andrew died there 18 June 1891.

The second partner was possibly Barbara DUNCAN.  I suspect this was actually Ann DUNCAN [as the foregoing] because the only evidence for Barbara DUNCAN is on her daughter Sophia's 1894 death certificate when the informant was George Clark SHIRRAN, 40 years Sophia's junior.  Further details if required.  We guess Ann/Barbara DUNCAN died sometime around 1818 or 1819.

Sophia SHIRRAN was born c 1817/8 in New Deer and died 12 Jan 1894 at Denholm, Peterhead.  She married George NOBLE, Andrew's brother, on 5 Sept 1835 in New Deer and they had four known children.

Alexander SHIRRAN's first recorded marriage was to Isabella/Isobel ROSS in Tyrie on 30 Jan 1820.  They had one child, Ann/Annie born 1821 in New Deer.  Annie was described as an "imbecile" in one census although the meaning is not given.  She lived with her future step mothers until Elspet CLARK died in the mid 1850s and then went to live with Barbara SHIRRAN and Alexander NOBLE.  After Barbara died in 1882, Andrew and some of his children looked after Annie in New Pitsligo until she died 22 Nov 1890.

Alexander's second recorded wife was Ann CADGER, married in New Deer 4 Jul 1835.  Ann CADGER is our ancestor but we have been unable to find anything definite about her ancestry.  We may know a bit but such evidence is based on guesswork.  They had two daughters, Jane/Jean SHIRRAN born about 1835 in New Deer and Elizabeth SHIRRAN born 1837 in Monquhitter.  AnnCADGER died sometime before November 1848 when Alexander married elspet CLARK.  A woman of her name died in the Aberdeen Royal Infirmary in April 1848.  Her home address was given as Denburn, Aberdeen but the coincidence of her dying just before Alexander remarried is persuasive that this was 'our' Ann.

Jane SHIRRAN married William IRONSIDE 7 June 1855 in Balquhindachy, Methlic and they had seven children.  William died in 1868 and Jane died in Newburgh, Foveran 27 March 1909.

Elizabeth SHIRRAN married Robert SIMPSON 11 March 1865 in Metyhlic and they had five known children.  We haven't traced any of this family further than the 1881 census.

Alexandr SHIRRAN's third recorded wife was Elspet CLARK, see above.
=============================================

We have masses of OPR copies, BMD certificates and census details from Scotland's People giving most of the above details.  Some we got over many years, from films at the Aberdeen Family History Centre in King Street.  For the least important details we didn't get copies, just transcribed the data.  We have not yet put all this data onto our Family Tree Maker and seem to have less time to do it as the years pass.

I hope this will help you understand how your ancestor Alexander SHIRRAN had to scrape a living as an agricultural labourer, moving from place to place and remarrying repeatedly  to provide a housekeep, child-minder and bed-warmer.  When he died aged 71 he was still working!

Best wishes

Ray

PS I've been promising myself that I would write his story for years.  This is the first narrative recording of it.  We spend ages trying to find a son called Alexander but the only likely one eventually proved not to be his.  Maybe he had a son with Isobel ROSS but possibly he [?and she] died in childbirth.  We may never know.  R

PPS Not proof-read so excuse typos, errors, etc.

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#8 28 Aug 2013 00:34

flss
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 5

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

Hi, I have a snippet of information on Charlotte Mutch, daughter of John Mutch & Charlotte Shirran. I have the marriage certificate of Charlotte Mutch to William Watson. They married in New Pitsligo,in 1927. Charlotte was 48, spinster & a housekeeper.She lived at 22 High Street,New Pitsligo. William was 55,widower, & a labourer.He lived at  24 High Street.
My connection is through William Watson. My gt.gt,grandmother,Jane Paterson had 2 daughters by him. I found no record of their marriage, but Jane's death certificate,in 1922, named him as her husband. When William died in 1943, the informant was a stepson Hector Mutch of Brownhill,Bruxie,Maud.I am sure I saw William & Charlotte's headstone in New Pitsligo kirkyard. I will get back to you when I find it again:)
I have not found it easy to research this branch of my family tree due to the amount of illegitimate births,different surnames & even multiple marriages. It turns out my grandmother was one of 23 children.Her mother had illegitimate children,married a widower with children,had some to him, remarried another widower with a large family & had 2 more children.There was also another illegitimate child by her 2nd husband. Complicated or what!

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#9 28 Aug 2013 12:33

Ray7033
Member
Registered: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 6

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

Hi flss

I've had a look at the MI Index for New Pitsligo and William and Charlotte aren't listed.  The index isn't complete for the north east but none of the many graveyards indexed contain both names.  See
http://www.anesfhs.org.uk/databank/miindex/miindex.php

Her mother, Charlotte SHIRRAN was at 22 High Street NP when she died; the DC Informant was Annie LOVIE who I think was originally Annie MUTCH, your Charlotte's younger sister.  We have other connections with the LOVIE family but only as witnesses - all very vague.

William WATSON seems to have had a challenging family set-up!

Incidentally Charlotte MUTCH was shading her age a bit.  Age 48 in 1927 implies birth around 1879.  In the first census entries she is shown as born around 1875 +/-1.  Still, I suppose knocking off 3 or 4 years could be a genuine lack of good memory (?).

I would be very interested if you find a reference to the memorial inscription.  I will pass on any information you have to the maintainer of the MI Index.

Thanks for writing

Ray
www.whatsinaname.net

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#10 03 Sep 2013 16:12

Harry
Moderator
From: Norway
Registered: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 10

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

Hi folks,

Great discussion with lots of good information!  I have been trying to identify the particular John Mutch mentioned above, but of course there are many on the website.  Can one of you with copies of records identify a year and/or place of birth?

Thanks,
Harry (Webmaster)

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#11 03 Sep 2013 23:30

flss
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 5

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

I purchased John Mutch's death certificate. He was indeed the widower of Mary Reid.He died March 3rd 1922 in New Pitsligo. His parents were given as John Mutch,master carpenter, & Christian Mutch nee Blackhall. The informant was his daughter Annie Lovie. I'm not sure how much details I'm allowed to quote from scotlandspeople so have not given actual addresses:)
Mammasig was correct in thinking her gt.gt.grandfather was married to Mary Reid.

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#12 04 Sep 2013 02:40

Ray7033
Member
Registered: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 6

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

Hi Harry

What an interesting life John MUTCH had.  Charlotte SHIRRAN is down as MUTCH in the 1901 census, married, but in 1891, while she was called MUTCH, she was listed as a Servant/Housekeeper, marital status undeclared.  In 1881 she was "unmarried" and "servant" but clearly mother of the children at home.

John MUTCH's age was given as 51 in 1901 and 43 in 1891, so he would have been born in the late 1840s or up to April 1851.  In both records he was born in "New Pitsligo".

I've had a look at FreeCEN for him in 1851 and there are two candidates. 

    One is aged 5, born Pitsligo, living at Auchries, Rathen.  This one certainly isn't the son of John & Christian so I guess can be ignored! 

    The other was born in Pitsligo in January or February 1851, living now at High Street Aberdour ["occupying 4 acres of land"!].  This is far more likely.

There is a family of John & Christian MUTCH living at Egypt, Aberdour in 1851 [16 census entries away from the baby] so I suppose they could have passed the two-month old baby over to the MAVOR family, though why he is called "grandson" is not obvious.

This may be the explanation:  John MUTCH senior, aged 46, is shown as a Salmon Fisher.  Christian MUTCH is aged 50 which seems far too old to have a 2 month old baby.  One possibility is that John senior fathered a baby on one of the two MAVOR daughters living at home, but he and his wife adopted him.  [I know of another case which we are fairly sure is identical to this scenario.]

Maybe you will have lots more details and you maybe able to trace him from the little information in the census and death records.

Not sure if I said this earlier but Charlotte SHIRRAN's death certificate, like John's, is also signed by Annie LOVIE, daughter.

Best wishes

Ray
www.whatsinaname.net

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#13 04 Sep 2013 17:44

flss
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 5

Re: John MUTCH fl.Tyrie/New Pitsligo Aberdeenshire 1878-1900+

I have no further information on this John Mutch. I'm not related to any Mutches myself.:)
Just thought the information off the death certificate would be of interest to others.The christian name of his mother may be incorrect as I did spy a  John Mutch married to a Blackhall,but her name wasn't  Christian.

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